About complexes

At the end of the last week the National Institute of Strategic Studies celebrated its 20th anniversary. The highest guest expected in the Ukrainian Home was the head of the Presidential Administration Serhii Liovochkin, however, unexpectedly for media the event was attended by the president. He congratulated the institute, gave awards and left… In his environment we noticed Hanna Herman. She immediately agreed for the interview. Herman’s communication style has changed a lot. To be honest, after several vain attempts to agree about an interview through Herman’s press office when she was the deputy head of the Executive Personnel we abandoned this idea. However, today Herman is ready to speak. So, The Day spoke to the advisor to the president, head of the Main Department for Humanitarian, Political and Social Issues at the Executive Personnel Hanna HERMAN about Ukraine’s readiness to deal with the “new modernity,” problems of reforms realization, recent scandals around her, officials’ wealth, absence of the humanitarian concept and what it should be.

“YOUNG PEOPLE WILL CREATE THEIR PROSPECTS IN UKRAINE ON THEIR OWN”

I’ve just been to a conference and all the experts unanimously insisted that Ukraine is not ready for modern challenges from the economic, social, and political points. What do you think about it?

“I think that general conclusions are always prejudiced. Ukraine is very heterogeneous. So is the society. There is a progressive stratum, there is a conservative provincial one, and there are those who are contaminated with hate.”

Towards whom?

“Towards anybody. It depends on where to stream it. Liubomyr Huzar recently said that ‘where there is at least a drop of hate there is no God.’ Is there God in our society? Everyone should answer this question: if there is no God there is hate. I once said that Yulia Tymoshenko lost the last election because she could not overcome the hate towards her rival. The one who will overcome the hate will win the next election.

“We were talking about social strata. I would like to talk about the most modern, progressive, and open one. About the youth. They live in a different Ukraine, in an absolutely different world with no borders communicating through social networks. Young people do not have any language problems because most of them are educated people. Take an average young Kyivite and compare him or her to an average Londoner. They would not differ either in style or thinking. The only difference is that those who live in Western Europe are better socially and legally protected. This is what our state owes the young. They have all the rest, their thinking is European. In this I can see enormous opportunities for the Ukrainian society. This is why we cannot say that Ukraine is not ready for the modern challenges.”

What social stratum would you attribute the current Ukrainian authorities to?

“There are different people among the authorities. You know when the sunbeams break through the morning fog, not all the fog disappears at once. First tangles separate and only then everything clarifies. The same happens with the environment. Those who contact with the light more because they contact with the world, new interesting people and ideas get promoted more easily and faster. At times they suffer from misunderstanding of those who stay underneath. It is especially true for the first persons of the state who communicate with the world a lot because of their work. It changes them and gives them the experience that the rest of their environment lack.

“However, there is a danger. If there is no sunlight supported by freedom, human rights and democratic values, the fog might not only stay but suck down those who have already risen above the environment. The support of the civil society that has to strengthen the democratic values is important. The civil society in Ukraine is developing very quickly. For example, the tragedy in Mykolaiv. Look how quickly our society united to protect Oksana Makar’s rights. It proves that our society is able to unite around values, justice, sympathy, and help. The Soviet style of thinking is still deep inside of many societies; however, Ukraine is gradually getting out of this fog.”

You have mentioned the progressive youth and that the future belongs to it. However, young people are leaving Ukraine because they do not see any prospects here.

“Young people are eager to see the world. Young people have a strong instinct of self-preservation. Self-preservation and preservation of the principles they want to stick to in their life. They instinctively reach out for the freer world. However, after they get everything they lack here they will come back. The youth will create their prospects in Ukraine on their own. Young people think that the world will receive them with open arms and all their dreams will come true. However, the world is very severe and there is competition there. It is free but it is occupied. In Ukraine it is easier to become successful if you have experience of working in conditions of the European competition.”

Why don’t Ukrainian authorities create any conditions to improve the competitive environment?

“Conditions will be created by the people and society. The authorities are taking the steps they have planned. The more competitive people we will have, the harder the competition between them will be. We have to stop thinking that the conditions will come out of the blue. Democracy has not come out of the blue in any country. The authorities always want to cooperate with positive society without any protest moods or where such moods are insignificant. There are two options: either suppress protest moods or make them subside for objective reasons. I think the second option is better for all of us. This is why I think that there is no other way but developing the civil society. Only this society is able not only to live in freedom but watch the democratic values.”

“THE PRESIDENT HAS TO HEAR DIFFERENT OPINIONS, SOMETIMES SHARP ONES”

How? For example, last week in Donetsk the police arrested three young people for their anti-presidential posters.

“For me it is very important that there are such students like in the Kyiv Polytechnic University who protected their rector, that there are such guys like in Donetsk who are upholding the students from Kherson. The police are also different. There are thousands of policemen in the country. They have been working there for a long time. They will change with the whole society. It seems to me that today Ukraine has a proper minister of home affairs. Probably, it is one of the most intelligent heads of the ministry. It is natural that not every policeman is like the minister, however, there are a lot of good people in the police and treating all of them alike is at least unfair. Different things happen. Do you remember when a poet from Lviv wrote a poem in which he criticized the president? The local police came to his home. If they had not done it, the press would not have written about it and the poetry would have been left without attention.”

The point is that such cases are not random.

“It proves the level of the people at power in regions. It happens because of the general lack of personnel. The power lacks the personnel. There are not so many courageous people with interesting thinking. For example, if someone is not a government employee, it is very difficult to employ this person in the state structures. Modern people have never wanted to be at power, they have always stayed aside. Staying aside the power was a kind of good form. The people got used that any power is strange to them. Though we have been having the Ukrainian authorities people should integrate into and help. I felt such attitude when in 2004 I left the American radio and entered the government. The society took it like a betrayal. Betrayal of what? Of the American radio? In a word, we should change the norms when it is easier to employ a public servant than an independent person. If this vicious circle is not broken, there will not be any fresh blood in the government.”

People will not join such power for sure.

“What power? People having sharp feeling of independence have never joined any power. Any power all over the world limits people’s independence. In Ukraine as well. Let’s take the case against me that was examined in the Supreme Administrative Court. The sense of the action was the following: if they could not ask the president to fire me, they wanted to limit my right to express my opinion saying that I am a state official and have to say what everyone says. However, if all the advisors to the president say the same why does the president need so many of them? Advisors are needed to express different positions and the president makes a decision based on this information. These opinions have to reflect the views of different strata. At the court the claimant openly told me that, in his opinion, I could not raise the questions concerning the cadre, in particular, the minister of education since I am not the president. It means that to be able to express one’s point of view to the large public one has to be the president. What about ordinary people?”

You are part of this government. By the way, this whole story seems to implicate that it is desired that your influence on the president is minimized.

“The talks about all kinds of influences on the president are nothing but speculation. My statements are an attempt to break the stereotype of a typical bureaucrat. Oleh Pokalchuk got straight to the point when he named this kind of officials ‘trembling elite.’ Does it turn out that a free person cannot be part of the government? I suppose this is not true. It is the other way round, only a free person has to be part of the government, and has to have a right for it. Otherwise, the government that consists only of ‘trembling elite,’ will also be trembling all the time.”

You see, they are proving the opposite point.

“I am very interested in the final result of this experiment myself.”

Do you have any problems with accessing the president?

“I am in normal conditions for performing the duties I am obliged to perform.”

You say that influencing the president is impossible, but there are certain groups around Viktor Yanukovych that fight for influence.

“It has always been like this, this surrounding is common for presidents. And not only Ukrainian. Let us call this a competitive environment.”

“WE NEED TO STOP THE BICYCLE AND THROW THE SPOKE AWAY”

Earlier you mentioned numerous problems within Ukrainian society and government. But today the whole “power vertical” is in your hands. Why are there no changes happening? It has been more than two years now.

“Saying that there are no changes at all is not quite correct. They do happen, but not at the desired pace. Nevertheless, Ukraine remains a ‘green island’ in the sea of the world crisis. While some of the EU countries experience serious problems, Ukraine shows the tendency of economic growth, which clearly indicates that reforms are being put into action. Is it true that the result lives up to society’s expectations? When Yanukovych came to power, a US newspaper called him ‘a man that hurries.’ The president understood that the time did not play into his hands and he needed to change the country swiftly. The pace we picked up partially was a cause of some measures we had to take, which we need to correct now. But it is not too late. The main thing is that he is aware of the necessity of reform. It is extremely important that the president has a correct picture of what is going on in the country. He knows our strong and weak points. This is the most important.

“Secondly, the reaction of the international community to the Tymoshenko case was a huge spoke in the wheel of reforms. This slowed them down, as well as the EU integration process.”

Why is this spoke still there?

“I believe that some steps to soften the situation will be taken. We need to stop the bicycle, throw the spoke away, and speed up.”

How can the situation be helped if the reaction of the international community is well-known? What way out of this situation do you see?

“I am sure that we are going to find the proper solution.”

“IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT YOU DO NOT LIKE, YOU SHOULD DO SO BY JOINING THE GOVERNMENT”

Lately, there have been a lot of scandals that involved you personally. I am talking about the Mercedes G500, in which you arrived at the latest Party of Regions congress with your son Mykola. And it turns out that your former counselor owns this car.

“Whatever I am to say now, you are not going to believe me. That is why I will leave this question unanswered. The answer will be revealed when the time comes. I am only going to say one thing: not a single law was broken. The end. Period. And the black PR technologies that have been used for many years to put me out of step, are just Sisyphean toil. Nobody is going to make me quiet and obedient. I have always worked, I am working now, and I will continue to work in a manner that I consider to be the right one, for as long as I will be able to. I am afraid of neither adverse publicity, nor superior courts.”

But this is the independent court the government keeps on talking about all the time.

“That is exactly the reason why I am not afraid of it.”

There is also information that your son works for the Party of Regions MP Yurii Boldyriev as assistant and counselor.

“Yes, he did take that position recently. This is the right decision my son made after certain statements expressed by Boldyriev’s colleague. Let us hope that thanks to his advisory efforts Boldyriev is going to change his attitude towadrs people who live in Halychyna.”

After looking at the way the officials and government representatives live and behave today, one can get the impression that the 1990s never really ended: expensive cars, heliports, blocking the roads, luxurious mansions. This is a distinct social group with its own rules. The society sees it all, so they do not want to join this kind of government.

“If you want to change the government you do not like, you should do so by joining the government. And actually make it better. And only then judge. The society has a right to make a choice. And it will eventually make it. And what you are talking about now – it is all caused by complexes.”

Which complexes?

“Poverty complexes. When people break free from poverty, they start surrounding themselves with attributes that would enhance their wealth and stability. This is going to pass soon, it is already out of fashion.”

The president also follows this pattern.

“You said this. All of us, Soviet people, got out of poverty once.”

The rest of the world will be far ahead of us by the time we get rid of the complexes.

“But there is a path you cannot skip, you have to walk it. Though you might try to leap. But it is going to be hard to do that and keep your knees and reputation unbruised. The main thing is to draw a lesson out of this. And correct the mistakes. It is never too late to admit the mistakes you made and start a different life, as long as you repent sincerely.”

“PROBABLY, I SHOULD HAVE FINISHED MY POLITICAL CAREER”

Do you feel any personal responsibility for what is going on in the country?

“Most certainly. Probably, I should have finished my political career on the day we won the elections. It would be the most correct and the most promising step for me to take. I should have chosen a different way. But I did not have enough courage to refuse. Power is a great challenge, and very often, a sin. But it is too late to talk of it now. The lesson should be learned and the mistakes should be taken into account.”

A person in government should feel they are useful. Otherwise, there is no point for such a person to be part of the government.

“You are right. I try to be useful to people who respect pro-Ukrainian values. And I do succeed at this. This gives me strength and conviction that I need to work more and never give up in the face of hardships.”

In Ukraine, being a part of government is an effective way of improving personal well-being.

“Arguing with you would be pointless. Because this is what the majority are thinking now. To be part of the government, I quit a respectable job, a high position with a decent salary. I have worked for quite a while in a system where I felt comfortable. I did not come to power barefoot and hungry. And still, the government is a big test, which we try to pass; some do better, some do worse. And there are enough of those to grade our results.”

A little bit on the Humanitarian Council. There have been several meetings, but the concept has not been approved yet. Why?

“The Humanitarian Council does a lot to establish democratic principles, just for Ukrainian culture. During our April meeting we are going to approve the strategy of Taras Shevchenko 200th anniversary celebration. The best minds of the country participated in the process of the elaboration of this strategy. Among them are Myroslav Popovych, Mykola Zhulynsky, Pavlo Movchan, Ivan Drach, and many other outstanding Ukrainians. We have a humanitarian deputy prime minister now. The Humanitarian Council played a very important role in restoring this position at the Cabinet of Ministers. On the president’s orders, Raisa Bohatyriova and I discussed the concept of humanitarian development. The concept was created at the National Academy of Science of Ukraine jointly with the Humanitarian Council workgroup. At present we are working in the schedule of discussion of this concept within the regional Ukrainian elites. In order to legitimate it, all the regions need to express their opinion. The president thinks that it has to be a nationwide document. Besides, at the recent meeting with church leaders, Yanukovych suggested that this concept be discussed within all religious groups.”