“There is no ‘nuclear club’ at all”

Ukrainians mostly pay attention to the EU space, because we are part of Europe. The attention to the East is smaller, and this is not very reasonable, because we don’t know what is going on there. What challenges does Europe need to see in the East? What does not Europe notice and it may be not very good for our future?

“Well, it is understandable that each region focuses on its own. So, the fact that Ukraine or Europe only look within Europe is quite understandable. On the other hand, Asia-Pacific region is growing very fast. It is one of the fastest developing and prosperous regions of the world today. And as they say, the center of the gravity, economic gravity, is shifting to the East. In that situation I think it is important not only for Ukraine, but also for India and other countries to pay more attention to this region. Yes, I have not noticed much of Ukraine’s association with that region. And I think it will be very important for Ukraine pay more attention to that area. This can be done in numerous ways. Ukraine has considerable strength: technology, engineering, metallurgy, aerodynamics, basically, education. You also have an excellent infrastructure. These attributes are important, useful and simply necessary in Asia-Pacific region, because they are still lacking them there.

“I’ve spent many years in the Asia-Pacific – Singapore, Jakarta, Burma – all these countries have a tremendous relation to the past to the former Soviet Union and now to Ukraine. You can find so many opportunities in that region.

“I believe that you have nearly 14,000 foreign students in Ukraine now. And when I was here 20 years ago there were also a lot of foreign students. You had thousands of Indian students even then, and now, as far as I know, you have 4,000 of them. So there are very good links between India and Ukraine. All these foreign students who are here in Ukraine should be regarded as a very good ‘instrument,’ a medium through which you can meet out with outside world. And Ukraine has that good attitude, you have been very kind to foreign students. But all these basic procedures, like immigration and visa issuing, need to be modified now, because in this world if we all go back to tightening of regulations on movement of persons, like visa or immigration, we may actually find ourselves bound to our own countries, but we must move out. See, globalization or major movement of capital, investment, technology, and basically information. The computer age has now brought the information to everybody’s doorstep. But, on the other hand, they are trying to stop the movement of people. This is a big irony. And unless we try to resolve it, we will not succeed. So I’m not just trying to give you a lesson. It’s not for Ukraine, it is general. But in the context of this topic of Indian students or any foreign students this can be very important.”

Please, tell us about the trends in the Asian region. What trends and problems are important now for the global world?

“Well, Asia has got economic prosperity and a lot of growth. On the other hand, there are a number of areas of political violence and volatility. So Asian-Pacific region is looking for stability, security, and peace, so they can continue to grow faster. These days we are looking for outside support, participation with the view to maintain that stability. Why they want outside people is because they would like to see that there is a good balance of power, there is incentive for growth and on the whole there is a partnership. So India has joined in this enterprise of full Asian-Pacific, North-East Asia, and South-East Asia. India became very much part of that now. Over the past 20 years we got ‘look-East’ policy of India. Through this ‘look-East’ policy we are very well integrated or in the process of integration. The European Union is not adequately presented this far in Asia. That’s why I feel that Ukraine can do something very good.”

Speaking about the challenges, not so long time ago Iran became a member of the nuclear club. What about India? India is also a member of this nuclear club.

“There’s no ‘nuclear club’ or anything of this kind. I think that we should first clarify this to you. India is not actually a member of Nuclear Proliferation Treaty and never signed it. India had reservations about this equity, because we regarded that it is unequal, unfair, and discriminating. India has always called for nuclear disarmament for the past decades. In fact in 1988 our former prime minister Rajiv Gandhi presented to the United Nations a very concrete plan on the question of nuclear disarmament. We committedly called for monitoring of nuclear tests. We said that we would never attack non-nuclear countries. India is therefore a non-equity country, but it has nuclear weapons. Iran has signed the nuclear treaty. So now the world community takes a strong objection to Iran: they fear that Iran will have nuclear weapon capability. India believes that Iran should abide by its obligations because it’s nuclear – that’s what we’ve said. On the other hand, the relations between India and Iran are very good. We have an old civilizations contact between Iran and India. Iran is important for India, for energy, for transit, Iran is a big power in the Persian Gulf Area. For Iran, India is also important, because we are a large market for Iran, we have a large population share. So we have good relations. And what concerns the nuclear issue, we keep telling Iran: look, we have excellent relations in other spheres, but on the nuclear question I think we should go by what our Treaty obligations are. So this ‘nuclear club,’ as you have called it, it’s not a club. There are five countries, which are formal members of the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. They are nuclear weapon powers, nuclear weapon states.”

What other challenges do you see in that region?

“Well, the challenges include Afghanistan, the situation in Pakistan today – there’s so much of violence caused by Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. These terrorists are trying to overthrow the present government in Afghanistan as well as in Pakistan. There’s a very serious situation – Afghanistan’s Taliban is still getting stronger and stronger, though there are large American and NATO forces there. What we’ll have after the American troops will be withdrawn from Afghanistan in 2014, as they have already declared, remains a big question – so that is the situation in Afghanistan, this whole area in that region. Well, there is a question of piracy in the Indian Ocean region, which is another matter of concern. By and large, I think we are dealing with these challenges.”

Let’s speak about policy and morality. Now the whole world sees Anna Hazare. This person and his messages are being discussed. His messages remind us of Ghandi. You know that Vaclav Havel died last year. He embodied the combination of such things as policy and morality. Currently we don’t see in Europe a person who could combine them. Is this a problem for India, too?

“Well, in Indian democracy there is room for everyone and therefore the big movement of Anna Hazare, his movement for ombudsman, he’s calling for a strong ombudsman and his bill in the parliament is currently been discussed. Naturally, he enjoys a very wide support across and outside the country, because everyone feels concern about corruption. So, that was a very spontaneous movement, simple, transparent, and honest, because this man is a very selfless person – Anna Hazare has no family, no property, no ambition for any power. People were greatly moved by that. We hope that his movement will help India a lot, because democracy after all is strengthened by transparency, like information openness. All in all, we welcome development and it has been non-violent, it has been a very peaceful movement.”

What is your vision of Gandhism today in a modern world?

“Gandhism has a universal and paramount meaning, because Gandhism believes in basic human values. Gandhism also believes in non-violence, believes in protest for justice and fairness. Wherever you are, Gandhism will be a strong sentiment, philosophy of life, and people are realizing that violence doesn’t lead to any solutions. We need to have dialogue, discussion, debate. What I feel is as democracy is progressing in the world, with more and more countries becoming democratic, more open, I think the Gandhian principles will become more and more valued.”

You have an interesting biography. In the 1960s you were in Moscow, you saw that regime. In 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell, you were in Germany. And in Ukraine now we see very controversial processes in the post-Soviet area, post-Soviet space. Civil society is developing, but there are some dangerous processes. What is your vision of this post-Soviet space? What is actually going on here?

“I think it is still in transition. Political arragements do not get completed in one or few years. We are still dealing with subsequent changes and aftereffects of the Cold War and continuiation of Cold War in different forms – in that kind of a competitive engagement which is still taking place in Central Europe and in Central Asia. So it is a matter of a few more years. Maybe the previous generation’s leadership will change and things will be different. Also with the growth of the Internet and influence of civil society in these countries, there will be further strengthening of democracy. I think the trend is in right direction. What happened is of course up to history to decide, but we are on the right path. I feel the we have entered that long phase. I only wish that it does not become violent. And it should not cause any pain either.”

From the geopolitical point of view – the main country for Ukraine is Russia. What do you think about Russian factor in Ukrainian-Indian connections? Does it play any role?

“Russia is obviously a very important country, it’s a global power. It has had very close relations with India. It doesn’t have to be a factor in Ukrainian-Indian relations, because our relations are set on their own strength, own feet. There will be some connection because of the link between Ukraine and Russia, you have so much in common, your defensive establishments or your educational pattern, all institutions in Ukraine are similar to that in Russia. But whether it is Indian-Ukrainian trade, or business, all this gradually will not be linked to Russia Ukraine stands on its own feet. You are not a small country.”

Mr. Sudhir Devare is the first Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of India to independent Ukraine. He headed the diplomatic mission in this country in 1992 to 1995. He had previously served at India’s embassies in the USSR, the US, and Myanmar, was an advisor and a section chief at the Permanent Mission of India at the UN Geneva branch. In 1982 to 1985 he was chief of the neighboring countries section at India’s Ministry of External Affairs. He served as India’s Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to the Republic of Korea in 1985 to 1989 and as Consul General of India in Frankfurt-am-Main in 1989 to 1992. Mr. Devare is an eminent expert and author of books on the situation in the Asian region.

Recently Mr. Devare arrived in Kyiv to take part in the conference “Restructuring the Global Space: Historical Imperatives and Challenges.” The former ambassador believes that some global geopolitical issues, such as environmental protection, security, migration, climate change, and terrorism, demand a consensus of the world community. “A new paradigm of thinking should emerge to address these problems of world politics. We have adhered until recently to the principle of a sovereign nation state. Naturally, this concept will remain intact, but a global consensus should be reached with respect to the aforesaid problems,” Mr. Devare says.

In an interview with Ambassador Sudhir DEVARE, The Day discussed important Asian processes and what Ghandism is today.