Sudhir DEVARE: Ukraine and India may become more complementary to each other

The first Ambassador of India to Ukraine Sudhir Devare is still interested in the affairs of our country. In May this year he visited Kyiv and just recently the former ambassador took the opportunity to visit the Indo-Ukrainian business forum, which was attended by the President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych. Mr. Devare gave an interview to The Day at the beginning of this forum, which was held on December 12 in Bangalore.

Mr. Devare, given the fact that for a long time you have been the director of the Indian Council for International Affairs and you wrote the book On the Chessboard of Asia and the Pacific: India and the Inter-play of Powers, where you speak about the growing role of China, I would like to ask you about how do you see the future of such formations as G2 – “the group of two” consisting of the US and China?

“Well, I’m not sure whether the Chinese and Americans themselves want G2 because it is not a feasible proposition. No, there are differences between the United States and China, major differences, also, a lot of cooperation between the two, but in the world there are many other powers, and it is all very complex. And therefore G2 does not look like a possible kind of arrangement. Instead I think what is now taking place is G20, where major decisions can be taken, both with respect to economy and security. Also you have smaller groupings like, for instance, BRICS, where Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa cooperate. Besides, the US, China, and India are present in East Asia. So from Indian point of view, any arrangement, which will bring about greater cooperation with many powers today, is more practical and more possible than just between the two big powers. No doubt that they are very important countries, very powerful countries.”

What role does India see for itself in all these configurations?

“Well, India is a stabilizing factor, you know. India works for peace, security, and stability in the whole region of Asia-Pacific and even beyond, because India, due to its economy, society, foreign policy, has close relationships with both the United States and Russia and with a number of countries in Europe, including Ukraine, the Middle East… India has this capacity to act as a country which is a voice of moderation, which is a voice of reason, and which is devoted to the policy of development.”

What do you think about the notion that India is the “underbelly” of China?

“India cannot be a ‘soft belly’ of anybody, India has an identity of its own. India is a large country, and it has its own history, civilization, it is very powerful.”

And it hopes to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council…

“Well, we hope to become a permanent member of the Security Council, because India has been contributing substantially all the recent 60 years to the objective of the United Nations. And India has the capacity to assist the United Nations in its major decisions, with respect to peace and security in the Indian Ocean, in East Asia, South-East Asia, in the Gulf, Central Asia, Afghanistan… India has a major role in Afghanistan now. Therefore, we are hoping that we will see full support from Ukraine to our permanent membership (such as many countries have given to India), and soon we become a member, a permanent member.”

When do you expect to get this status?

“I think there still are a number of factors in the United Nations. The processes are rather complicated. There also are other powers which themselves would like to be permanent members, so they would not easily support India’s membership. Among the five permanent members there is no agreement on this issue so far.”

Our countries have similar past. Both were the victims: Ukraine was a victim of the Soviet Union, while India was a victim of British colonialism. How does your country view its past?

“British colonialism has been history for 60 years now. There are some institutions which the British started in India, like the nature of democracy in India (like parliamentary, Westminster kind of democracy), or the judiciary, or the institutional education, the kind of liberal education derived on the Western pattern. Those institutions also have the infrastructure that the British created. Those things are all there, and of course we are happy with that, and we appreciate that. But colonialism was very brutal. Colonialism left a deep scar on India, and the country was also divided. So now we look at colonialism as a thing of past. We have our own perspective on that, with positive and very negative factors. As far as Ukraine is concerned, you have a number of common traditions with Russia, other republics of the Soviet Union, CIS… And again, those common institutions bind these countries even today, although you have differences – and that’s why you became separate countries. And we recognized that, and we had excellent relations with the Soviet Union, and now India has excellent relations with Ukraine, and also with Russia. So I think for us it will be a positive thing to continue working with Russia as well as with Ukraine.”

What is your opinion on the state of democracy in Russia, especially during the third term of the President Vladimir Putin?

“Well, it is for Russian people to say. It is a matter for Russia’s government and people. With President Putin, India has an excellent friendship which goes back several years now. We have very cooperative ties between our countries, and we wish success to him, and to the people of Russia.”

But, as you know, Russia has not yet fulfilled the contract to supply aircraft carrier “Gorshkov” and holds other supplies…

“Those matters are under negotiations, they are going on, and we hope the aircraft carrier will be ready soon, because it is very important for our defense.”

You have visited Kyiv this year in May. It would be interesting to hear from you what changes you have noticed in our country.

“I went there after 20 years, and I saw a tremendous change. Things have improved a great deal. I couldn’t believe many things I saw this time. Kyiv is really booming now: so much availability of things, the standards of living have improved, the quality of life has gone up, better education and better facilities… So what has been achieved in these 20 years by the people of Ukraine, by the government of Ukraine, is really remarkable. I was very happy to be there.”

Mr. Devare, how would you explain the fact that in the Indian press there were no publications about the first day of the visit of the Ukrainian president? What are the reasons since at the ceremony of the beginning of the state visit there were a lot of Indian photographers and journalists?

“No, no, it is because lately the Indian press has been very much focused on domestic issues, and has had very little coverage of foreign affairs. But I believe the other day one of the biggest Indian dailies, The Hindu, carried a big interview with president Yanukovych. The Hindu is one of the reputable newspapers which have an extensive coverage of international affairs. I recognize this problem nowadays, we also don’t find much to read in our newspapers as regards foreign affairs. It doesn’t have anything to do with the importance of Ukraine. Most countries don’t get any coverage at all.”

What people of India expect from this visit of the head of the Ukrainian state?

“My expectations, or India’s expectations – and I go back to the time when I was there – are that Ukraine has a very developed industry, metallurgy, science and technology, IT, defense industries. And India and Ukraine can really work out great complementarities. We have so much mutual need for these things. Therefore I hope that this visit will strengthen our bonds in these areas. Education – because thousands of Indian students are studying in Ukraine; culture – because Indian dance and music are so popular. So I think this visit will definitely bring the peoples of Ukraine and India closer.”

Your colleague Ambassador Vidya Bhushan Soni called the time between the visits of the Ukrainian president in 2002 and this year’s visit a lost decade. Was the Pakistani contract to supply Ukrainian tanks the reason for this statement or is there something else?

“That could be one of the factors, but I would say that both Ukrainian and Indian leaderships were preoccupied with other priorities, and they didn’t recognize their mutual importance. Unfortunately, it happens sometimes, but India has a lot of time ahead, it must catch up now.”

Do you think there should be a Ukrainian Cultural Center in Delhi?

“It should be there, I do know that if you explore the possibilities, people in Delhi will be happy to have a Ukrainian cultural center. We love Ukrainian dances!”

What do you think about the Indo-Ukrainian business forum and the participation of the Ukrainian president in it?

“I think there will be some hardcore businessmen who want to do business with Ukraine, they must be here. They will explore the possibilities, and they will ask your president, as well as the delegates, questions – because Indian businessmen today are aggressive, they are going out, they’re reaching out, and Bangalore is a very important business center of India. In southern India this is the most important city. So I’m glad that your president is visiting Bangalore.”