Frankness of a “political hooligan”

Avigdor Lieberman, a Soviet expatriate (in 1978 he moved to Israel from Chisinau), has become an influential political figure in the State of Israel. He established the Our Home Israel party in 1999, which gets a growing number of mandates in the Knesset with each passing election. Now this party, whose power base is mainly composed of immigrants from the former Soviet Union, is represented in the highest legislative body of Israel by 15 deputies. After the latest elections, in the fall of 2009, Lieberman became the Minister of Foreign Affairs in the government of Benjamin Netanyahu, with whom he has been closely linked for a long time. Recently the State of Israel’s head of the foreign office visited the inauguration of the newly elected President Viktor Yanukovych. In his exclusive interview for The Day, Lieberman spoke about short-term prospects for the development of relations between Israel and Ukraine, shared his vision on solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, explained why Israel is so self-reliant, and the potential dangers of a nuclear Iran.

“WE’RE MOVING AT A VERY GOOD PACE”

Mr. Lieberman, before your second visit Ukraine over the past three months, the press reported that the delegation you headed was going to outline the plan for collaboration on a range of major Israeli-Ukrainian projects in the sphere of economics. Were those expectations fulfilled?

“First of all, I came here to be present at the inauguration of Ukraine’s president. Second, I had a meeting with my colleague Petro Poroshenko today. I suppose we’re moving at a very good pace. Our political relations are excellent. Now we should develop their content. Last week we signed the first agreement of this kind on introducing a new air routes between Tel-Aviv and Kyiv. We want to make trips more frequent and cheaper. Third, on March 15 a big delegation of the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs is to arrive, headed by the deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and the head of Consular Department. Their work will regard the visa regime cancellation.

“We made the decision on government level, and now the technical work is done. Also, on the expert level we have elaborated the agreement about investment protection and double taxation. We think that a new government will be established in Ukraine, then a representative to the intergovernmental commission will be appointed from the Ukrainian side, and we will undertake finalizing these documents. In Kharkiv oblast the work is carried out on establishing a research and development of agricultural farm with the most advanced technologies. Today we reached an agreement with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine regarding a visit of Israel’s president Shimon Peres to Ukraine on May 10-11. A lot of work is ahead of us. God help us keep up the pace.”

Do you have an idea about when the abovementioned agreements will be signed?

“I think it will be ready within half a year. Based on our experience, and we canceled quite a few visa regimes already, the procedures typically last from half a year to a year. Because the agreements are processed on the level of lawyers, consular departments, Ministries of Internal Affairs. Then all this should be ratified in parliament. I think half a year is a very short period for all of that.”

What about the agreement on the free trade area?

“Part of the work on this issue depends on the intergovernmental commission. Unfortunately, it has never been assembled, since you have elections and reelections all the time. We’ll work as soon as the new government is formed.”

Mr. Lieberman, before your visit to Kyiv you visited Brussels and spent 40 minutes behind closed doors negotiating with top EU authorities. Obviously, you had to discuss the issue of the assassination of a Hamas leader in Dubai. The press claims that the Israeli Mossad is related to this murder. What did you tell Catherine Ashton about this?

“You know, the situation in Dubai was discussed only during two meetings: with Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Great Britain and Ireland. I told them, absolutely sincerely, that I had no information that this murder was connected with our special services. We already grown accustomed to smear campaigns. Mossad has been the basis of many scripts and books, and James Bond must be very popular in the West as well. It seems the press earns its living by means of such striking publications. There were many headlines, but no facts.”

“IT IS THE COUNTRIES OF THE PERSIAN GULF TO WHOM IRAN IS THE BIGGEST THREAT”

By the way, one of the headlines stated: Iran is too big a threat for Mossad to cope with. How do you conceive solving the Iranian problem? Despite Israel’s appeals, particularly Benjamin Netanyahu’s, to impose “paralyzing sanctions” on Iran so as to stop it from enriching uranium, nobody agrees to severe sanctions against the country. The Americans have expressed their opposition to this through Hillary Clinton, who at the meeting with the Minister of Defense Ehud Barak said: “We’re not going to impose sanctions which will hurt the Iranian people because it’s absolutely inefficient.” The Russians don’t agree to impose such sanctions either. President Medvedev in his interview to Paris Match stated that the only way out of this situation was responsible behavior by Iran itself.

“I suppose that the Iranian problem is not our problem. This is a problem of the world community. We saw how elections in Iran were held, and what followed the elections. Freedom of speech, transparency of elections, and freedom of demonstration are challenged by the Iranian government in a way like by no other country in the world. One should understand that it is the countries of the Persian Gulf to whom Iran is the biggest threat. Israel doesn’t border Iran, the petroleum states of the Persian Gulf do. For them it’s a deadly threat.

“If Iran gets access to nuclear weapons, it will lead to a mad nuclear arms race in all the Middle East. Egypt and Saudi Arabia have repeatedly stated they were not ready to tolerate a nuclear Iran. Therefore if Iran has nuclear weapons, they will also join this arms race. It’s difficult to imagine, even in James Bond movies, the consequences of an arms race in the Middle East. No horror movie will be comparable. That is why it seems to me that the situation is quite clear.

“Let’s ignore for a moment the terror Iran inspires around the world. Look at events with Muslim rebels in Yemen, in Eritrea, Somali. And what happens in Iraq between Shiites and Sunnites. That’s why Iran is a big problem for the world community. And the statements of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a week ago, when he threatened to block the Strait of Hormuz? And in case of such a blockage prices for oil will at least double. Japan and Germany can calculate their costs.”

Neither Russia nor the USA are ready for sanctions. Who will stop Iran? Will Israel have to act, as it was in the case with the Iraqi nuclear center Osirak, which was ruined by an air attack of the Israeli air forces?

“We are not going to undertake the role of the world leader. There is the UN, the European Union, and NATO. However, we don’t exclude any options. There are enough world leaders, and we are waiting for adequate policy from them. Today we need the policy of Churchill, not Chamberlain, to stop all this. Taking into account the fact that today there are enough problems in the world, the problem of Iran should be solved, not postponed.”

In Brussels you held negotiations regarding the Iranian problem. Did the EU promise you to take any specific measures to stop Iran?

“In Brussels I felt more understanding and readiness to solve the Iranian problem than previously. Europe can make a decision for itself, not within the framework of the UN Security Council, where, for example, China can use the right of veto.”

“WE HAVE CLOSE RELATIONS AND GOOD COOPERATION WITH NATO”

Some European leaders, in particular the Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, have expressed the EU’s readiness to accept Israel. According to newspapers, during your meeting with the EU leaders you tried to raise the status of Israel in the EU. Please tell us what status you were thinking of?

“Today one doesn’t talk about the full membership of Israel in the European Union. We would like to be one step away from this. Two states in Europe, Norway and Switzerland, are both close to full membership. We expect to discuss this question informally once again at the beginning of March, and to initiate actual negotiations on raising our official status in the EU at the end of March already.”

And why don’t you consider joining NATO? It could provide your country with defense guarantees in the case of an external attack.

“We rely only on ourselves. Our historical experience has shown that one should rely only on oneself. We have close relations and a good cooperation with NATO. And we are satisfied with the level of relations we have today. In addition, we often see that a formal membership in NATO doesn’t resolve problems of security and controversy inside NATO. One can remember how two NATO members, Turkey and Greece, waged a war in the past.”

Mr. Lieberman, you once stated: “Our principle problem is a strict de-legitimization of Israel and its political isolation.” Does your country, which is a member of the UN and other organizations, and has such strong allies as the USA or leading European states, have such a problem?

“Let’s consider the following fact: Iran’s president objects to the fact of the Holocaust existed and appeals to destroy Israel. Yet he remains an acceptable player on the international arena. He is accepted everywhere, people talk to him. This is the first time since the Second World War that the head of a state denies the Holocaust and appeals to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Or let’s take a look at the Goldstone Report. This is an incredible case of hypocrisy. It’s interesting which countries voted against us, accused us of crimes against humanity, violating rights? These are Sudan, Northern Korea, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela. In a word, this is a wide array of exemplary regimes.”

Ukraine was among those who supported Israel…

“Yes, and also Germany, Italy and the USA. It has had a positive impact on our relations with Ukraine.”

“TODAY WE TRY TO FOCUS ON BRIGHT MOMENTS OF FRIENDSHIP”

We already talked about economic and political relations between our countries. Couldn’t you enumerate examples of cooperation between the best representatives of the Jewish and Ukrainian peoples?

“You know, back in the 1970s, my acquaintance in Israel Yasha Suslensky, established a society of the Jewish-Ukrainian friendship. He was the first in Israel to promote these relations. Unfortunately, he died a few months ago.

“Jews have lived in Ukraine for a long time. The history of our two peoples intertwined very closely. There were very many ups and downs, pogroms and salvations. Today in Yad Vashem over 2,000 Ukrainian Righteous among the Nations are registered. And there were guerrilla bands where Jews fought side-by-side with Ukrainians. Generally, the two nations shared a common fate in the past centuries. And today it’s impossible to imagine Israel without the people who lived here. These are Zhabotynsky, Golda Meir, Sholem Aleichem.

“Today we try to focus on bright moments of friendship and cooperation. There are enough dark spots, but we want to look to the future, we want to build relations on an absolutely different qualitative level. And the abovementioned examples inspire in many ways.”

You once said that “the Palestinian problem won’t be solved today, tomorrow or in 20 years. In this regard we should build a multi-vector policy with the countries which remain outside of this problem.” Could you tell us about your way of solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?

“One should understand that in our times people, like children, want to get everything at once. But some problems are so complicated that they last for centuries. I met the Irish Minister of Foreign Affairs and asked him: how much time did it take to solve the conflict in the Northern Ireland? He looked at me and said: 800 years. You see, they were solving their problem for 800 years in the center of Europe, not in the Middle East. And you want us to solve in 8 years, something that took them 800. Let’s look at the argument between Great Britain and Argentina regarding the Falkland Islands. The war between these countries was in 1981. Before that there were controversies, but this conflict is not finished yet. And the controversy between Russia and Japan regarding the Kuril Islands is still ongoing and seems endless.

“It’s important to understand that there will be discrepancies and controversies, but those controversies should under no condition be solved through coercive methods or methods of terror. That is what we want from the Palestinians. In the nearest few years we will hardly be able to solve this problem. Yes, we’ll argue, but we will build for ourselves this line, a Rubicon that we will not cross.”

“I SUPPOSE IT’S BETTER TO BE A POLITICAL HOOLIGAN THAN A POLITICAL CORPSE”

Mr. Lieberman, what’s your attitude to your popularity in Israel? According to the surveys conducted by the Geocartography Company on the topic “Who would you disguise yourself like for the holiday of Purim,” 40.9 percent of participants expressed a wish to be like you. The current prime-minister Netanyahu took the second place with the result of 20 percent.

“(Laughs). We had a politician, Prime Minister Sharon, who described it well saying that politics is a Ferris wheel: once you’re up, once you’re down. And the current president Shimon Peres had such a sacramental phrase: all public opinion polls are like perfumes – they are pleasant to inhale, but dangerous to swallow. So, one should treat all polls with a considerable dose of skepticism and not get carried away. If something was the case, that’s okay. They spelt your surname correctly – good enough.”

What would you say in response to the former Minister of Justice, the former deputy of the Knesset Yosi Beylin, who called you a “real political hooligan?”

“As a political corpse, of course, he envies me. But I suppose that it’s better to be a political hooligan than a political corpse.”