First impressions and observations

Great Britain boasts ambassadors who know the languages of the countries of posting, so Den/The Day’s first question to Her Majesty’s Ambassador to Ukraine Simon SMITH was whether he reads Den in Ukrainian. Mr. Smith further told about how he could quickly learn German, French, Japanese, Russian, and explained the British island mentality in its current phase.

Mr. Ambassador, can you read Ukrainian?

“Yes, I do read Ukrainian, but my spoken Ukrainian is not quite as good as I would wish it to be, so I shall continue my studies. I started studying Russian some 40 years ago. I haven’t studied it continuously all this time, just on and off. So at least it means that I do not have to start learning Ukrainian from zero. My impression so far is that I probably get a bigger volume of my information, and understanding about what is going on in this country, from Ukrainian-language press than from Russian-language one.

“My impression is there is more printed media available in Ukrainian, certainly more quality online media and news media is in Ukrainian. And certainly, most of the television channels that I receive where I’m living seem to be in Ukrainian rather than Russian. I have got used to watching programs where a question will be posed in Ukrainian and a reply will come in Russian, where clearly it is always free for all as to which languages are employed.”

And what is your impression of Den?

“I was quite impressed so far, actually, by what I’ve read in this newspaper. I have not yet read the today’s edition, so I can’t give you an immediate, lightning-quick editorial comment. My impressions of your paper are very positive. I think there are a lot of issues in here, which I think are given a good, I would say, broad-minded ventilation, and it strikes me as a paper which stimulates free and open debate, which I think is extremely important.”

Considering the reports coming from London, of David Cameron’s very strong stand against European budgets, lack of any attempts to try and save the euro zone… there are also reports that some kind of referendum of the EU is possible. It looks like the specific island thinking. In Ukrainian, we have a saying, moya khata skraiu (my house is on the outskirts). What can you say about this?

“It is very true that one of the big concerns of Prime Minister Cameron in his euro policy at the moment is that, at a time when we are going through some really serious economic difficulties, when there is a very high premium on the ability of governments to keep a tight hold on spending, and to spend efficiently and effectively, when many governments in the European Union are pursuing policies of austerity, and bearing down on public spending, that this is absolutely the wrong time to be presented with proposals on the European Union budget which are looking at significant increases.

“Point two is the fact that David Cameron is concerned that there is insufficient understanding, in some of the Brussels’ institutions, about how much of a deficit of confidence and trust is actually building up amongst some of the populations of European Union member states, about the effectiveness of the European Union institutions.

“So I think that in a sense what is sometimes perceived as a position which is hostile to the European Union, actually I think is a position that is very friendly to the future of the European Union because what Britain is concerned about is making sure that confidence in the European Union and its credibility amongst the populations of Europe actually stays high.

“On the other hand, you will hear a lot from the British government, a lot from David Cameron, about their commitment to making the institutions of the European Union really work. There’s been no change in the conviction of the British government that the enlargement of the European Union is a good thing, and in the way in which it leverages transformation on the political and economic scene of various European countries and in the way in which it builds an ever-widening community of security and prosperity in the European area.

“The second thing which the British government is deeply committed to is the success of the Single Market. A lot of people say that we are a country which only has mercantilist, commercial aims for the European Union. Well, one, if that was the case, we would not be so interested in the enlargement, but we are interested in the broader security, prosperity, stability objectives of the Union. So, we are committed to enlargement. And second, you can’t dismiss how important the institution of the Single Market is. We are very much in favour of an effective and complete Single Market, which means completing the Single Market in services, in digital services and so on. As I say, that is, and will remain, a very powerful piece of commitment from the British government to the European institutions.”

And what about all the talk suggesting a referendum? Does it fall in the same line, or…?

“I think it does. There is talk of a referendum, you’re absolutely right. The British government is not afraid of talking of a referendum. To some extent it even encourages it. The representatives of the British government will say very clearly that they find it a matter of regret that the British population was not consulted on the implementation of the Lisbon Treaty. The current government feels that that was a step forward, that was so significant that it should have been something that the British public and the publics in all European Union member states should have been consulted about. Second, it is very much worthwhile to verify that the level of commitment to what is going on in terms of Britain’s relationship with the European Union and the level of contentment with that amongst the public stays reasonably high.

“And for those reasons it is the conviction of the current British government that it would not be a bad idea to consult the public on their view on the balance of powers between the European institutions and between Britain.

“But the fundamental point is that Britain sees itself as having an important role to play in Europe and will stay committed to the institutions of the European Union. That is a strong plank of British government policy.”

You remarked that London is supportive of the enlargement of the EU. But what can you stay about the British journalist Lancelot Lawton’s famous statement that without an independent Ukraine, European progress and peace in the world is impossible. Does the current government understand importance of Ukraine?

“I’m not sure that the British government would exactly use the same language as was used in 1935. But I think it looks at the question in a very similar way. Yes, I think it really does recognize how important a country like Ukraine is. When you extend your vision to look and ask yourself what kind of Europe we’ll be living in 20 years’ time, I think that the British government very much recognizes that what happens here, and the part that Ukraine plays over those 20 years will be important. I think Britain recognizes it from the point of view of the size of the country which would make it one of the largest, most populous countries in the European Union. It recognizes the importance of Ukraine from the point of view of the immense potential that there is here, in industry and agriculture. Britain recognizes the potential of Ukraine and I think it’s a growing realization in lots of parts of Europe, possibly growing also even in Ukraine. It recognizes how important Ukraine could be in the whole context of energy supply, and the questions of energy self-sufficiency, energy efficiency and so on. So I think for all these reasons, yes. And last but absolutely not least Britain recognizes the importance of Ukraine in the sense of being a country which is only 21 years on from the beginning of the transformation process that followed from the collapse of the Soviet Union. In some cases you would say 21 years is a long time. My daughter, who is 23, thinks 21 years is a very long time. But in other respects, those of us who are a bit older don’t think it’s such a long time. In that sense Britain sees the way in which Ukraine’s political and economic institutions evolve, the way in which Ukraine’s businesses adapt successfully to a globalised business environment – we believe that all that is extremely important.”

Does Brussels – or, speaking more generally, the EU – do enough to support Ukraine in the integration to the EU, taking into account that some Ukrainian officials, who frequently visit Brussels, say that the EU usually gives Ukraine the stick instead of the carrot?

“I often prefer not to talk in terms of ‘carrots and sticks.’ I know that some people prefer to do that, that’s fine, it has some meaning, and it helps some people to understand the situation of feeding carrots and beating people with sticks. What I prefer to think about is what actually works: it’s how various kinds of systems, various cultures, organizational cultures get to match together and adapt themselves in order to work effectively together.

“I think it’s very clear at the moment that there is some doubt in the minds of decision-makers in the European Union that right now there is enough evidence that these systems and institutions of the European Union, on the one hand, and Ukraine on the other, are ready to link together and work together totally successfully.

“There are some doubts in the EU that we are totally ready to go forward with these ambitious Agreements, that is, the Association Agreement and the Deep Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement.

“It’s very well known that, for example, we in the EU have concerns about the way in which the judicial system operates in Ukraine.

“I meet a lot of people who are running British businesses here, or who are British businesspeople and who tell me about how challenging (and ‘challenging’ is often a polite word for ‘difficult’) an environment here is to work in when quite often the law is ambiguous, it’s difficult to understand what the law is saying, it’s difficult to understand why and how the law is being implemented and it’s difficult to arrive at the conclusion that there is total independence in the judicial system. “And I mention this not only in the context of the imprisonment of Yulia Tymoshenko, and Yurii Lutsenko. That is one context, and one example of what we are concerned about. I see a lot of evidence of this in other contexts as well.

“And I think that what I would strongly recommend to Ukrainian decision-makers is that they look at where quicker evidence can be shown of reform of institutions.

“We are watching with great interest what will happen with the result of the introduction of the new Criminal Procedure Code on November 19. I’m hearing also interesting conversations and discussions about the prospects of reform to the prosecution system, which again, I think – you know, nobody in Ukraine needs advice from me on how that might be reformed. There is lots of advice out there which has come out through institutions like the Venice Commission in the Council of Europe, and so on.

“There are lots of recommendations out there saying, look, actually, there would be great advantage in reforming that sort of institution, taking it further away from what looks structurally to be still rather Soviet roots and traditions, and creating a different kind of role for the prosecution service.

“I think that if the decision-makers in the European Union were feeling that they were seeing more evidence of movement on this, that would do a lot to raise confidence. It would make them readier to say yes, Okay, we were ready to get on ahead and implement the agreements that we’ve initialled.”

Do you think the EU is right in putting before the Ukrainian authorities an ultimatum to release Tymoshenko and delaying signing the Association Agreement enacting which indeed may help resolve many problems mentioned above?

“I think our experience tells us that it is not wise to make great ‘leaps of faith’ in this sort of activity. And in a sense there are some parallels, I wouldn’t want to exaggerate this, but I think there are parallels between the process that is going on in Turkey. Now, you will hear, and I’m sure you have heard, a great deal of frustration from our Turkish colleagues about the pace at which this is happening. But look at how much has been achieved in terms of real reforms, and you listen to the representatives of the Turkish government saying, actually, regardless of how this process of accession to the European Union ends, we’ve done things here that are good for us, and now our country works better, it’s more successful and it’s more profitable and it’s more prosperous than it was before we started on these changes.

“So again, I would encourage some of the Ukrainian decision-makers who complain a bit saying ‘Oh, Brussels is not giving us anything, nothing is moving,’ to say, look, what we need here is a strong vision of a transformation in the way in which the country works. We need to draw up a better recipe for success. But we need to do it for ourselves. Not just because the EU wants it. So get on with doing that. If Ukrainian decision-makers are taking these decisions and say, ‘We will do these reforms,’ they are doing it to build a better future for Ukraine, they’re not doing it for the European Union.”

You have just mentioned Turkey, and I would like to hear your opinion on another country, Russia. Where do you think Russia is now, and what course is it following? Won’t it become a sort of threat or challenge to the West, as the Soviet Union was?

“Let’s be honest: yes, Russia is a challenge in many respects. But it’s a challenge also in a positive sense, all challenge is opportunity, and it is also difficult.

“Why is Russia a challenge? From my own experience of dealing with Russia, one thing that struck me is that quite often we are dealing with institutions which are not an equivalent to each other.

“For example, I was involved very closely when an extreme difficulty arose over the investment that Shell had in Sakhalin, and there was quite a degree of confrontation involving Shell, involving Gazprom, involving the Russian government.

“I saw in handling this issue how Russian institutions often work from very different premises, with very different mentalities, and they are subject to different kinds of pressure. I noticed, for example, that my relationship with the company Shell was very different from, let’s say, the relationship between a Russian bureaucrat and Gazprom. Because our institutions are in many respects very dissimilar to each other, there can be some very serious institutional, structural, cultural barriers to get over, which absolutely will make dealing with Russia a real challenge. But what my experience of working with Russia has told me is, yes, it’s difficult. But the business of working with Russia to find solutions to problems is worth making the effort, is worth making the investment. You don’t get return from all the investments, and you have to understand that there are some projects that fail.”

You have not raised issue of democracy in Russia. What do you think about democratic processes in that country?

“This is another example where you look at the way institutions function in the United Kingdom, you look at the way institutions function in Russia, and you have to recognize that things are done differently, and they are done differently in a way which can make it difficult for us. It can be another kind of cultural, structural, and institutional obstacle to getting results in doing business with Russia.

“It’s well-known that the recipes for democracy, or what is labeled as democracy in Russia, are not ones that we would think appropriate for our own systems, nor in the long term are they ones that we think will best provide for the future in terms of prosperity, stability, security. We recognize that there are differences in the systems. We will not be shy in saying why it is that we think a more solid foundation for democratic institutions is actually, in the long term, better for a country than one where power seems to be much more concentrated, and one where the accountability of governments is more limited. And that’s the message which we are prepared to share with our partners in all kinds of countries, not just Russia. It’s a message that I will also be very happy to debate here in Ukraine as well.”

You mentioned about how to deal with Russian officials and business, and what about Ukrainian ones?

“So far I’ve found few problems. I’ve had a great many discussions, whether it’s in the political sphere, whether it’s about the future of the economy, whether it’s about how business is done here. And I would not say that in every one of these discussions I’ve been speaking to people who totally agreed with what I was saying. But what I do find is that this is an environment where communication can be done openly, problematic issues can be discussed and all sides of an issue can be addressed, and where people will at least listen to me if I have things to say. We talked about where the European Union-Ukraine relationship is now, and I’ve shared a few thoughts about how I think it could be better. Of course, I share those thoughts when I’m talking to officials or people in Ukrainian public life and business. And as I say, not all of them agree with me, but I feel this is an environment in which people will listen seriously and in which we can have a very good constructive debate about things.”

You mentioned the difference in cultures of British and Russian official business. What can you say about the fact that former Prime Minister Tony Blair came to Ukraine to some constituency on which Viktor Pinchuk supported his own candidate to the Supreme Soviet and had given a lecture before elections?

“As I understand it, this was a private initiative of Mr. Blair, and as a representative of the British government, I have no comment to make on what Tony Blair does with his time.”

Mr. Ambassador, before going to Kyiv you were on a mission in Vienna. It is known that neutrality for Austria was imposed in 1955. Current Ukrainian authority two years ago adopted non-block status. In your opinion does this status may bring security to the country in world which is more and more interconnected?

“In a sense, where you place yourself, whether you are a part of a block or an alliance, whether you call yourself non-block, and so on, that’s a decision for any sovereign state to make.

“I don’t find Ukraine’s non-block decision intrinsically problematic. What is important is, for example, that Ukraine’s defense and security policy planners look at things like the role that Ukraine can play in peace-keeping operations, the role it can play in actions that sustain security and stability in the wider region. In that sense, it’s very welcome and very important that there’s a good deal of substance in the kind of operational relationship between Ukraine and NATO as an institution, and between Ukraine and a large number of the NATO members.

“We actually have here in Ukraine a British advisor who works in the Ukrainian Defense Ministry, and she helps us to do a lot of work in bringing together people who make and implement defence policy in Ukraine and Britain, identifying further opportunities for us to collaborate, even on basic things, like helping to improve the English language ability of the Ukrainian armed forces, to share experience of reforming defense establishments and policy.

“I think it is very important that the sovereign decision on joining or not joining alliances doesn’t by definition block off these avenues for cooperation, it doesn’t block off the opportunities for interoperability and that it absolutely doesn’t block off the opportunities for countries to play a cooperative role together in tackling global and regional threats.”

At the end I will give you some more pleasant non-diplomatic questions. How did you succeed in knowing so many languages?

“When I was at school, that was the only thing I was good at. Somehow I got myself taken down the learning languages track. It’s always something I’ve enjoyed as well. I specialised at learning languages at school, and also at university. When I joined Foreign Ministry, I said ‘I speak French and German, and a bit of Russian as well.’ And they said, ‘well you’re just the man to go to Japan.’ So they taught me to speak Japanese as well. It’s something which I’ve always found both interesting and stimulating, it takes you into other areas of understanding of countries that you’re in, into other modes of communication. It takes you obviously much more deeply into the country that you work in, and it brings a great deal of satisfaction. But I guess I also find that probably as a musician it helps that I’ve also had a habit for a long time of listening to melodies, and remembering them, and playing, so that might help learning language too.”

What kind of Ukrainian melody do you know or like?

“When I studied in Lviv, I was introduced to the music of Okean Elzy. I also met the rector of Lviv University. People in Lviv told me that the relationship had changed. A few years ago, they used to look at his son and say ‘you know, his father is a minister of education, very famous man.’ Now they look at the rector and say, ‘you know, his son is a rock star, very famous man.’ I have a large book of Ukrainian songs which a family from Lviv gave me, so I was introduced to things like Chervona Ruta and I have a little CD of the very best songs of Ivasiuk, I’m beginning to study these things with seriousness.”

As you play on some instrument would you like to join some Ukrainian band?

“I think that would be a great objective. But at the moment, I find it very difficult to find any spare time. But it’s definitely something I would like to do. Again, in a way little bit like languages, when you play music with people, it’s another route to understanding which is worth taking.”

In your biography on website is said that you like to cook. Do you already master some Ukrainian meal or specialities?

“I haven’t made much progress in cooking Ukrainian-style. I lived with a family in Lviv when I was doing my intensive study of Ukraine, and the lady of the family cooked wonderfully well. I am convinced that whenever I eat holubtsi or varenyky, they are going to be wonderful. I haven’t learned to cook them myself yet. But when I cook, often I’m cooking things with rice and Indian spices. This is what a lot of people who live in London like.”

You were in Japan but cook Indian food.

“There’s very simple answer: Japanese food is so easy to buy already prepared, you don’t need to be a sushi chef, it’s already there, you go out and get it.”

There’s a British series on TVi with English humor. What do you think about Ukrainian humour?

“I haven’t actually learned enough about it. This is clearly an area where I need more education, and advice.”