“A mature nation knows its heroes at once, and immediately adds them to its political or cultural ‘armory’”

Ukraine’s first online translation of a live performance on You Tube, the presentation of Sviatoslav Vakarchuk’s new project “Brussels,” seen by more than 100,000 viewers in Ukraine, France, the US, Russia, Israel, Portugal, and elsewhere; the unveiling of the monument to Volodymyr Ivasiuk in Lviv; last year’s Okean Elzy’s travels far and wide (to Ekaterinburg, Sochi, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Tula, Rostov-on-Don, Krasnodar, Samara, Chita, Almaty, Minsk, the Greek isle of Rhodos, Riga, Tallinn, Odesa, Dnipropetrovsk, Kalush – and the list is far from complete)... More than enough reasons to invite the OE frontman to The Day’s office.

In one of your interviews you spoke of standards: you said it was necessary to upgrade by raising the standards. In what spheres do you think they have been established, after two decades of independence?

“What do you mean by ‘standards’? I could have meant a lot by this.”

First of all, European values, then the living standards and the rest.

“It is very hard to return to European values for a country which actually belongs in Europe, but which has hardly been part of it over the last thousand years. It is almost unfeasible in a 20 years’ time. But have we made any progress in that direction? Yes, we have. How far? Time will show. Although personally I think we might have done more. What helps us? The Internet, the open borders… And what stops us? Geopolitics, the historical past, and our own complexes. In a word, our opportunities and our troubles are hidden inside us. Bad government is also a reflection of ourselves.”

And what about Ukrainian music, for one?

“Many will probably say that it is in decay.

“I remember very well the situation in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Ukrainian music virtually did not exist back then. Which means there was a kind of Ukrainian music, but it was a very marginal phenomenon. But independence gave it, just like Ukrainian culture in general, a great chance. Did we fully use it? No. But it is obvious that over these 20 years we have got more opportunities.

“In my view, the effort of one individual, or even several passionary individuals, is not enough to radically change the situation. History is a gradual process, which depends on the majority.”

What about Gandhi then?

“I know his story. Remember, on obtaining British education, knowing many influential and interesting Englishmen, and feeling a free man, he found himself in South Africa, where a numerous Hindu diaspora had already formed. (Under the British Empire, numerous Hindus moved from India to South Africa.) It was there that he sensed that people were prepared to take peaceful action against the lawlessness and tyranny, and thus he came to lead the protest movement.

“When figures like Gandhi or Mandela arise, it means there has been demand for them.”

Recently Russian protesters took to the streets with slogans saying “We need our own Havel!” Do you think Ukrainians need one, too?

“I hold Vaclav Havel in high respect. First of all because he was one of the few leaders who were able to peacefully divide a country into two. Even in [Western] Europe few were able to complete such a feat, let alone other parts of the world.

“However, for a Ukrainian Havel we need the Czech or Slovak society which was brought up by the Prague Spring. Can you picture Ukrainians protesting against Soviet tanks 50 years ago? Besides, two decades is too short a span of time. Modern mature democracies have been developing for centuries. You know, when it comes to our strategic prospects, I am an optimist. But speaking of our nearest future, I remain realistic. I don’t think that a miracle can happen one of these days. In my view, it is not worth waiting for a miracle. We must do something on our own, and score success – even if we do not live to see this country as we want it to be. At least, everyone can shape the space around oneself to one’s liking.”

Watching you at the presentation of Bohdan Hawrylyshyn’s book, we noticed that you are close to Hawrylyshyn, as well as to Ivan Dziuba. Unfortunately, some 90 percent of Ukrainian musicians will not even know who these people are. Do you see them as your role models?

“I have always craved for associating with intelligent people. In my sphere, you normally don’t often come across interlocutors who enrich you and whom you can enrich. I am saying this without being snobbish at all. Show business is the same everywhere around the world. You can’t expect it to turn into a brain trust. I do music because it is my goal in life. But nothing stops me from having friends and acquaintances in other walks of life, which I actually do.

“As for Bohdan Hawrylyshyn and Ivan Dziuba, I think they are an example of how an intellect keeps a man young. Their craving for self-perfection and self-education, even at such venerable age, is just admirable!”

At the tribute concert for Serhii Kuzminsky you said that after hearing Braty Hadiukiny [The Hadiukin Brothers, one of the first Ukrainian-speaking rock bands. – Ed.] you understood that one can sing rock in Ukrainian. It sounded a bit strange, since you grew up in the Ukrainian-speaking Lviv.

“Nothing strange. I was 14 when I first heard Hadiukiny, it was 1989. Was there any Ukrainian-speaking rock around there worth mentioning?”

What about Ruta [Chervona Ruta, a Ukrainian song festival established in 1989. – Ed.]?

“I discovered The Brothers before the fest. By the way, although their lyrics were funny and stuck in mind immediately, they didn’t influence me as much as their music did. Maintaining the Western standards, it somewhat resembled The Rolling Stones which I had been listening to at the time.

“At the unveiling of the monument to Volodymyr Ivasiuk, I said that this composer was an example of how you can make fascinating music in Ukrainian. Yet his work still had a slight East European tinge to it, whereas Braty Hadiukiny showed an absolutely Western-style approach in music, using a living language, that is to say, the language I could hear in everyday life.”

When did you come to realize the scope of Volodymyr Ivasiuk’s work?

“I guess as soon as I started listening to his songs. As a teenager, I read his father’s memoirs of him, and became interested. I remember his songs would give me goose bumps.

“It is hard to imagine how a person, in a situation like this (on the one hand, a total ban on everything Ukrainian but kitsch, on the other, rejection of anything that did not meet Soviet standards), could create such stylishly arranged songs, making Sofia Rotaru a super star for decades to come. Ivasiuk is an outstanding man, although today’s young people and most middle-aged and older people are not aware of this. Sadly, it takes years for us to realize the true greatness of our fellow countrymen. By the way, a mature nation knows its heroes at once, and immediately adds them to its political or cultural ‘armory.’ I wish we did it while they are still with us.”

You played in the large-scale tribute concert for Kuzminsky. You also took part in raising the funds to open Ihor Pelykh’s memorial plaque. Are these one-time actions, or do they testify to the maturity of the artistic milieu?

“We don’t really fancy combined concerts because these projects are complicated and hard to carry out. Many performers means many needs, technical complications, problems with the script. In case with the tribute concert for Kuzminsky it was a gesture of my personal respect for the man I knew very well and whose songs shaped me in a way. Moreover, we began to discuss the idea of such an event right after Serhii’s death, together with Pavlo Krokhmaliov and Ihor Melnychuk [members of the band Braty Hadiukiny. – Ed.]. I believe this was an important project.

“As far as the more material reasons for combined events go, it is not up my alley. I have to have clear motives.”

Which of your fellow musicians deserve to be praised?

“Many. Bakhroma, Dymna Sumish, Boombox, some songs by S.K.A.I. I like what both former members of the band 5’NIZZA are doing; at the moment, Serhii Babkin and Sansei. By the way, I am playing together with Babkin in the project ‘Brussels.’ There are some pretty good pop performers, but it’s more complicated, since they often work with individuals who have very limited tastes.”

Speaking of unions, you must remember the “sixtiers,” in particular, Sylvestrov and Hrabovsky. As avant-garde musicians, they incurred danger. But they were united by certain philosophical principles together with their contemporaries (artists, writers, and publicists). Is such philosophy-based union possible in today’s Ukraine?

“Good question. Maybe, among certain Ukrainian musicians… But the mass movement of the 1960s is hardly possible again. Perhaps it is not even necessary. You named Sylvestrov and Hrabovsky. However, there were dozens of other composers besides them, who did not take part in the movement. At any rate, it depends on each artist’s individual stand. It seems to me that a desire to unite everyone with an artificial idea won’t do any good. Every movement must be self-sufficient. For instance, a lot of absolutely different musicians came to the Maidan. There were people with iron principles, people who wanted to earn points and polish their image, and people who just hoped to build a career. But they all came because there was a powerful idea.

“Not everyone who joins a holy idea is driven by holy principles, but such an idea always inspires, since it opens a lot of opportunities.”

Do you feel that you have allies, people who share your views?

“Speaking of attitudes in general, yes, and there are very many of them, not only among musicians. They are just people who fascinate me. It is also important what you mean by ‘sharing.’ If you mean allies in starting a revolution, we would rather start with consciousness.”

It is just important to feel that someone else shares your views.

“Okean Elzy as a band is in a complicated situation. On the one hand, there is a great proportion of our fans, who see us as an exception from the kind of music they listen to – and they will mostly listen to cheap pop music. For them, we are alternative music. I am very well aware that we owe them much of our popularity.

“On the other hand, there is a much smaller, but more influential layer, for whom Okean Elzy is the poppest music of all they listen to. So in a sense we are between the devil and the deep blue sea. But it is perhaps impossible and unnecessary to try to please content editors of pop radio stations and at the same time, the Internet bloggers interested in alternative projects.”

You mentioned “Brussels,” your new project. It is peculiar, among other things, because it is being distributed via the Internet. Do you think Ukrainians are prepared to pay for good quality music, and moreover, do it via the web?

“Now the interface for downloading music is very convenient. Young people download music to their phones and computers, which means that there is an audience used to Internet music, at least the people under 30. But when it comes to people being ready to pay for it, here we deal with issues of individual mentality. So far we can see that classical Protestant values are not inherent in our society, which is why most people will download music for free. I’m not going to preach and lecture to anyone. I think time is the best teacher. But if we don’t start to involve people in this, we may lag behind forever. Our fans pay via the web to download ‘Brussels.’ So far, they are the minority, but I am very grateful to them – not for providing us with money, but for creating a precedent for this country.”

Okean Elzy, VV, and Boombox can be dubbed “Ukraine’s music export.” Does it have a chance to expand?

“Over the recent decade there has appeared very much Ukrainian music in the Russian space. There are nearly 20 rock bands which constantly perform outside Ukraine, and it’s not only in Russia. And there are nearly 15 performers who are very popular in Russia. Maybe you do not identify them with Ukrainian music, but regardless of the language and style, you have to admit that this music, too, is Ukrainian.

“I think that in the post-Soviet space Ukraine’s stand in music is quite strong. Am I happy with the quality? No, not always. But market will be market.

“As far as expansion goes, let’s live 200 years like Russia’s equals, and then I think the situation will be more or less fair. Now, despite all complications, the music relations between the two countries are dominated by the market. There are no artificial limitations on Ukrainian music in Russia, just as no one tries to curb Russian artists in Ukraine.

“Until 1991 there indeed was a disparity, and a very tangible one at that. Two decades is too little to put the picture back in balance. Given that out of all the post-Soviet music in Russia’s TV and radio space 70 percent is taken by Ukrainian artists, the situation for us doesn’t look too bleak.

“I love performing in Russia. The audience there is great: wonderful, open people. Maybe their mentality is somewhat different from mine, for example. Maybe they live by somewhat different rules and regulations, but I would not speak of a fundamental gap between the two civilizations. Politics is the source of the biggest problems, but now, it’s a horse of a different color, it has nothing to do with culture and music.”

You happened to be in Moscow right in The Days when Russians took to the streets to protest against the rigged parliamentary election. Were you able to sense the change in social temperature?

“What is happening in Russia now has long been described in numerous books on political studies. Over the recent decade Russia has become considerably wealthier (let’s not discuss the details), and developed the middle class (maybe different from Europe’s middle class, but quite important). And when people at last improved their well-being, they began to think about other things which they realized they had lacked. This is the stage all countries pass through.”

In recent years Okean Elzy has not performed under any political slogans. What is the reason for this?

“We have never performed under political slogans. As far as the Maidan goes, performing on that stage was my personal decision, as an individual and a citizen. I will only appear at political events when I myself feel like saying, ‘Hey, let me on the stage, I have things to say!’ This is what happened in 2004.”

In one interview you were asked why, if you have given up political activities, you still keep declaring attitudes and making statements. You answered that you do it when you consider it necessary to make your civic stand known. This is what I see as a sensible attitude towards politics. Instead, in this country such attitudes are warped: people pursue political careers for the sake of money, instead of change. Why do you think this happens?

“This is the paradigm we are living in. We wish there were no corruption, but no one wants to start with themselves. We want our country to be ruled by principles, but we will often place our own interests and those of our family higher than values and principles. We say that the politician is someone we trust, but in reality we don’t trust anyone. I have already said that I think these are the growing pains found in any nation. Not for a second did I believe that one Maidan would be enough for us to rise, cleanse ourselves, and prosper. It’s impossible. Great European democracies have experienced dozens of revolutions, uprisings, and wars. Just think of what France had to go through between the end of the Great bourgeois revolution and the Commune. It looks like European nations have already found their way, but even they are giving in to today’s economic challenges. Meanwhile, we have just taken the path of democracy. We must not forget that Ukrainians had had no full-fledged statehood for a millennium, since the time of Kyivan Rus’. Whether due to our geography, or the fertility of our soil, or the vitality of our nation – but thanks God, somehow we have survived, unlike many other nations which, deprived of their own statehood, just disappeared into oblivion.”

Obviously, besides a lot of other factors, it is also books that make nations. As a man who sincerely and persistently promotes reading, what books would you recommend to Ukrainians in conclusion?

“Different Ukrainians will need different books. Generally, it is such a great and complicated issue that I would start with one book: the Bible.”